week of September 30: What is the point of the example about the shipowner in Clifford's piece in relation to believing in God simply based on faith? Do you think the shipowner example is relevant? Is Clifford's point a good one? Explain.
The ship-owner believed the ship would make it to its destination based on his faith and past experiences of the ships voyages. Rather than taking necessary precautions and look in all directions he chooses to rely only on his faith to make the decision not to update the ship. This is true for people’s belief in God as well. People rely solely on faith of the unknown. They would rather go blindly than to look at all aspects negative or positive. I do think this is relevant, the ship-owner chose to blindly follow his faith like so many people who follow god. There was no sound proof this ship would make it to its destination and he chose to rely on past records of the ships voyages. People do this with God. They rely on the accounts of the bible and other people to make their decisions about God. I think Clifford’s point is a good one because it gives example. The example is that even though you have faith in something it doesn’t always mean it’s going to be the right thing to have faith in. Terrible things can happen even when believing in God it could lead you to become over confident.
I agree with you that the man had complete faith in his ship so he did not look over it. This is like our relationship with God, we trust Him for the better, but there still are doubts. Are we responsible for our beliefs like the man was responsible for the ships accident, claiming the innocent lives of others. Why should innocent people die because of anothers mistakes? And is there enough proof to ay God exists?
I don't know if the man had complete faith in his boat otherwise he wouldn't have had second thoughts about it, when his moral compass should have kicked in instead of hoping for the best. Plan for the worst and hope for the best or is it enough to turn blind eye and call it faith where as a simple inspection might have revealed the problem that caused the sinking. Amazing how things never come to light in the day to day decisions people make that affect other peoples lives.
The ship owner knew deep down that his ship had problems, but sailed it anyway because he put faith in it. The ship owner shut out his doubts and wanted himself to believe that the ship could make it. The relationship between this article and God to me is that if your hesitant that God exists it is good to check your doubts. An overall inspection can lead to strong faith in something. Example; If you have a person fix a part on your car you have faith in the person fixing it and you believe it will run correctly when it is all said and done. So if you put faith in God and live through him, then you will get to heaven. So I am up in the air on this relation though because it goes deeper than just faith. If we are simply talking about faith then i would agree that Clifford's point is a good one in pointing out the good/bad about faith. Faith is good to have and makes you feel better in situations, but just having faith does't mean that it will work out in the end.
First of all, i agree with you when you say the man had faith even though there were doubts that the ship wasnt reliable, but he sailed on anyway. But it is good to check your doubts because it leads to a greater relationship with God. I really like your car metaphor and that we trust our lives in eachother hoping it will turn out for the best and sometimes having faith alone is not enough.
The point of the shipowner example is that even though you think that there is evidence because of actions in the past, doesn't mean that you should risk your life as well as other people's lives because of something that isn't proved. He put faith in his ship because of things he had seen beforehand. I think that this is a good example and he does make a good point. It is a good example because it is relateable to something that could and does happen. We put faith in somethings because of something that has happened in the past, without looking at the condition of the present. It is a good point because it shows the downfall in doing this as well as the lesson. You wouldn't trust a beaten up boat to sail just because it has in the past, so why should you put faith in God just because of examples in the past?
I like the way you highlighted the fact that the shipowner relied on past information and experiences without considering the present. Everything changes over time so it foolish to base beliefs and judgements solely on past events.
Logicians have a phrase for basing opinions on past experiences, and anticipating an outcome. Its called "the gamblers fallacy", it pertains to actions/events that are repeated over and over, like flipping a coin. Just because your last 10 flips turned up heads, doesn't have any bearing on the next 10 flips of the same coin. To believe anything different is wrong, because the past actions have no bearing on the next. This can be applied to our shipowner and his transporting of emigrants because it was a repeated event.
The shipowner example, by Clifford, is that a ship is not seaworthy but the owner decides to sail it anyway despite the problems that it's having. This is compared to having faith in God, because even though there may be problems in the world and evil surrounding us all, some of us choose to believe and remain strong in the faith while others may not choose to "sail their ship" because of all the problems. Although this is suppose to compare to having faith in God, I don't think it's relevant. In the end, the ship sinks and people die. Yes I think the rapture will come soon and people will die, but who's to say that there isn't a God that will save us from spending eternity in hell? We won't know until the time comes, so why are we comparing it to a story that ends badly? I don't think that's fair. As I've stated before, everyone who believes has had their doubts as to whether God really does exist or not, but we choose to remain devout to Him anyway. I don't think any of these arguments or examples are good because it's not going to alter what someone already believes. If anything, I do think it tests them and their knowledge to help them become strong in what they already believe in. That's just my personal opinion.
I agree. These arguments test the people that do believe in God. So many people are so quick to agree with the first person who says that God isn't real and its probably because they weren't introduced to Him when they were younger. Parents don't take their kids to church every weekend like they used to. They don't get involved with there community and see all the good people they have around them. And really it honestly doesn't matter what the argument proves or what it doesn't prove because the people who do believe in God will still believe in Him no matter if the argument says that he isn't real.
I also believe that a rapture will happen soon. The world is getting rough and in self destruct mode. I like how you added this into your post. I don't like the comparison that much either.
My interpretation of the shipowner is that even though the ship was not perfect, it had its doubts and concerns but it sailed. This example relates to believing in God because just like the ship, all the arguments trying to prove God exists have their problems and doubts but out of faith the belief in God sails. I think that this point is important because I believe in God, and though I cannot prove he exists i still have faith in Him and believe. I think that is what Clifford is trying to show, that sometimes even without 100% proof of God, that people believe in him out of faith and I think that that is a perfectly good reason. I think this point is a good one because i think that faith is the reason many people believe in God. Also because comparing belief in God to a shipowners faith in his questionable boat is an accurate analogy. The shipowner has faith in his boat although it may not be a sure thing, just like many people have faith and believe in God even though there are problems in doubts in the arguments that attempt to prove his existence.
You do realize that it was about the fact that quelling your doubts with your faith is wrong right? That the shipowner had doubts about the ships sailability but he had faith in it and his faith ultimately proved to be the wrong choice when the boat sank killing everyone on board. And that even if it hadnt sank he still would have been culpable. You saying that it's a good analogy to belief in God is not doing the belief in god any favors.
What is the point of the example about the shipowner in Clifford's piece in relation to believing in God simply based on faith? Do you think the shipowner example is relevant? Is Clifford's point a good one? Explain.
I think this is a wonderful example. We have free will and the choices that we make are truly our own. I can not close my eyes when I am driving and expect God to help me to safety. We have to ensure our own safety by the decisions that we make. God is always watching over us, but not in the way that we think he is. He watches over us when things are out of our control and puts tools in place for us to use if we decide to take his hand in guidance. If someone is at a party and there are drugs we all have the choice to leave or stay, to take the drugs or not take the drugs. We have free will he doesn't make us choose right from wrong. We get to decide.
I like your analogy of driving. I however, think that you could have went more into detail and looked at it holistically. Clifford’s point is relevant but where does it relate to god. I know you give us examples that he is watching over is but does it relate to that fact that we follow god blindly and the ship is the representation of that subject. It would have been nice to know more about your opinion of the relation between the two rather than how you feel god works in mysterious ways.
Even though the ship wasn't in perfect condition, the shipowner decided to sail it anyway. He put faith into it even though he knew the ship might not make it. People do this all the time. If someone is very sick, people hope, wish, and pray the person will get better, even if the odds aren't likely. Even if we don't know what the outcome of something is going to be, faith keeps us going and pushes us through.
I think that the faith in the ship was a very negative thing and in no way comparable to the type of faith that gives people hope. That being said, I totally agree that faith can be a good thing. Especially faith in something like God. Even if belief in God causes some extremists to carry out unspeakable acts in his name, for the most part faith in God keeps people in line. If the majority of the population wasn't afraid of some final punishment or that God was watching I would never leave my home again. Sometimes I think faith in God is all that stands between some people and regressing to something akin to primal animals, taking what they want and doing what they please.
I really like that you compared faith to having some type of illness. Even if the disease is terminal and you know the person will die, it doesn't make you lose hope, because you still hope and pray that the person will recover. The sailor knew that his boat was "sick" but he had faith that it would recover. It obviously didn't recover and people ended up dying which is why I don't think it's necessarily a good story to compare to the relationship we have with God. If it wouldn't have ended badly and you were to consider the first part, then I do believe it fits. We don't know for sure if God does or doesn't exist, but as I wrote in my post, I believe God throws us curve balls to test our faith, and we have to try to remain strong throughout our life so we can spend eternity with him in heave.
Your analogy of being sick is hard to compare because with putting your faith in someone who is sick, isn't really hurting anyone. You may disappoint yourself in the long run because you had high expectations, but you wouldn't be hurting anyone around you. The guy in the ship put his faith in something he knew was going to fail and decided to put himself, and possibly others in that danger. It's like pushing your beliefs on someone else and having them drown with you.
The shipowner knew that the ship wasn't in proper shape but he had the faith to sail it. Even though he knew it wasn't necessarily the safest to send the boat without direction. Yes, I think that this example is very relevant because as hard as it is to have faith in something he had it in a boat. Having faith in god is the key to having the blessings he will give you. In order to be blessed with his good will you must have faith he is there even though you don't have him there to touch. Clifford's example is great because it is the definition of having faith in something you don't know that is going to happen however, in the end it is what you need to be able to do something like he did.
I completely disagree. The ship owner's "faith" in the ship was completely unfounded and undeserved. Not to mention so far off base from faith in God. His "faith" in his ship caused all the families that were on board to die a terrible death at sea. His feelings about his boat were ones wrought of greed and negligence. His "faith" was out of convenience because he didn't want to spend the money to fix his ship. I can't even compare faith in God to this dude's actions.
If the example wouldn't have ended badly, then yes, I would have to agree with you that it is relevant. But if you do believe in God and think that having faith in something that may not be there, then I don't think you would agree that this is a good story to describe a relationship with God. The story ended with the ship wrecking and people dying, but if you considered solely the first part of the story, then like I said, I would agree with that. Having faith in something that may not work (like a "broken" ship) is hard, but I believe that it really tests a person on their faith in that particular object (or God).
The point of Clifford's shipowner analogy is that faith is well and good, but even well intentioned shouldn't cover up doubts you have. The shipowner had doubts, but his faith in his ship made him overlook the obvious problems the ship had. He often thought about getting it fixed, but he didn't, ultimately causing the deaths of all on board his ship when it sank. Again, his faith covered up something else, his guilt. He refuses to look at his doubts and blindly believes everything would be ok, an analogy to other blind followers.
I like your point about the shipowner using faith to cover up guilt. We know he used it to cover up doubt but it stands to reason he would also use it to cover up his guilt as well.
I think this is a great example, even though having faith in God and a ship making it to its destination are a bit apart but none the less faith based. Clifford’s point is good even though the ending was bad. Had the emigrants made it to their destination then no one would be the wiser and he would have proven himself correct. Even though the ship had made this trip many times before in the past he chose to have faith in the boat instead of doing something as simple as to get the ship looked at and made a free will decision once having all the facts, but he took the lower road and put lives at risk and the died and he collected the insurance on it. I think with anything in life there are many levels in everything in life including faith. Blind faith doesn’t mean you get to overlook aspects in life when making these types of decisions, especially when other lives are at stake and the impact it could make. Having faith in God basically only affects you.
I agree with the ship and its relation to blind faith. However, your faith only affecting yourself is not always true. Your faith if you choose one has an effect on many people generally everyone you meet can be affected by your choice in faith. You base your judgments on your faith do I steal is this person moral all of these are based on faith and have an effect on everyone you meet.
I believe the comparison made by Clifford regarding the ship owner was to illustrate the point that blind faith in anything can be irresponsible and have negative results. I don't think this is really the best example. Much like the teleological argument the analogy just isn't strong enough for me to buy into it much. Having faith in a floating hunk of decrepit wood is very different from having faith in God. My point is this, it is extremely foolish to have "faith" in something when evidence to the contrary is placed under your nose. The ship owner could see that there were obvious problems with his ship and chose to sail it anyway. There exists no real concrete evidence that says god does not exist. The "leap of faith" is a bit different here. To blindly ignore evidence and believe in something you know isn't true is just foolish. Now, if a person had "faith" that god was going to deliver them from some extreme and terrible situation, that would be equally foolish. Unless God had descended from the heavens and personally saved you in the past, I don't think it's wise to believe that god will rescue you. It is said that God helps those who helps themselves. I think Clifford's point could be a good one, but the analogy of having faith in a ship and having faith in God could probably changed to make his argument stronger.
I really like they way your related Clifford's example to the teleological argument and how the the analogy in both cases isn't very strong because the things being compared aren't really that similar. This was not something I originally considered but now that the point has been made I agree with it.
I think it's only natural for someone to feel defensive when their beliefs are questioned but you might want to look at this a little more closely. I concur that is it foolish to place your faith in something when evidence to the contrary is placed before you. Now, I'm not saying that there is no evidence that God does not exist but there isn't much other than speculation to go from. Also while some may say that God helps those who help themselves, wouldn't that mean they're putting in most of the work if they're helping themselves? In your eyes what would be a better analogy?
Yes, I also believe that it was a blind and irresponsible idea. In addition, I like that you added something that was relevant from our class by adding the teleological argument.
@Jacob C My beliefs? I don't believe I discussed my beliefs at all. I'm merely examining the argument that was set before us. I don't think it is a strong argument. I'm not sure exactly what it is I need to look at more closely. I don't want to provide a better analogy, I just think this is a poor one because the god is an intangible concept while a boat is a pretty tangible thing. I don't really have an open stance on the topic of the existence of god but I'm certainly not defensive over the direction of this argument. Quite the contrary. No matter the ending result, I just can't agree with a bad argument. As far as putting in most of the work, yes absolutely. Anyone who would think anyone else should put in work in their life is just foolish. I look forward to your response.
I'm sorry but I have to make one more post regarding almost everyone in this blog. The point Clifford was trying to make was that blind faith is bad. He is comparing your faith in God to faith in a ragged broken down old ship. I thought we were north of the bible belt in Iowa. Seriously people, I can understand why the super religious would not like this but don't try to spin it into a positive analogy for faith in God. Pick your battles! Say you don't agree and move on. This class is supposed to show you another way to think about things. You don't have to agree but you also don't have to fight it tooth and nail every step of the way. These are arguments that are not meant to be twisted in your favor. Just relax and try looking at these topics with an open mind!
I read this story once about a woman who stopped believing in God because he took her son from her... the story starts with the kid being easily treatable but the women says I have faith God will heal him. The child's illness progresses and a simple surgical procedure can fix him, but the woman says no no God will heal him. The boy gets very sick and needs to be hospitalized but again the woman says no God is just testing my faith. Then when the child dies she blames God. Her "blind faith" blinded her to all the resources she had available to her to save her son. Much like the boats obvious disrepair was evidence enough that it should not be used thus suggesting that following blind faith without using common sense can and will most often end in disaster. I know this story could be interpreted as sometimes having faith is not always sensible or easy but that is not the point of faith, but I also think that having faith is about correctly reading the signs and using all the resources God has given us. If you have the medicine take it, if you have a different boat use it!
I agree with you that having faith is about correctly reading the signs and using the resources we have. I think that God would want us to utilize what we have. I think that if God didn't want us to use all the resources we have, then he wouldn't have allowed us to discover and have them. Having faith definitely isn't always easy, and I think that making the right decisions, using common sense, powering through tough times and not giving up shows how strong your faith is.
I really like your point it god is the one giving the signs and resources. She should have accepted the hospitals help and got her son treatment before such terrible tragedy occurred. I understand that some people have very strong faith and convictions but having such blind faith isn't always a good outcome, this story for example.
Clifford's example of the shipowner highlights the idea of believing in something based on blind faith and without evidence or observations and how this is not an ideal way to believe. In the example of the shipowner, Clifford states that even if the circumstances were different and the ship arrived safely the shipowner would still be a dishonorable person because his beliefs weren't based on solid foundations. I think this is a very valid point because it deals not with the outcome of the situation but with the intent or origin. This, I feel, is a better way and more complete way to judge the morality of the situation. If an intent is fundamentally wrong then a positive outcome does not change the originally poor/bad intent.
Yes, this is true. Either way it goes the ship would have made it and Clifford got it done with pure luck. Also, I like how you concluded it by saying the outcome may have been positive but it didn't change the bad intent.
I like to think that the ship theory is a metaphore forour relationship with God. the ship owner had faith in his boat because he had relied on her. He put his belief in the ship because she hasbeen through so many voyages and has whethered each journey. But that doesnt mean he didnt have any doubts. He never looked her over, yet he knew in the back of his mind there might be a possibility she could not make it through this one. Does this make him responsible for the deaths of the people aboard the ship? I think the ship is like God, because we put our trust in Him, yet there still will be doubts to refute it. If we believe in God but there is not sufficient proof, then we fall victim to our convictions despite the proof and i thimk that is what clifford was saying. Hes saying that it is wrong to believe in something without sufficient proof. Is there proof God exists? To me, there is plenty of it! Miracles happen everyday, God is like water that flows everywhere this it lives in all of us.
I guess I'm a little confused by the sentence, " If we believe in God but there is not sufficient proof, then we fall victim to our convictions despite the proof..." The point of it is that there is no proof and just because someone might be lucky in that the boat didn't sink the last voyage, you shouldn't keep running it hard until it breaks. You should back up your convictions with facts and evidence so you don't risk your life or the lives of others because you think a miracle might happen.
I do think that having faith in something is not a bad thing, however, having blind faith is foolish, and this is what I think the shipowner example really means to show. Yes, the shipowner had faith in his ship because it was so reliable in the past. But that was in the past! He clearly knew it was falling apart and needed repair, but instead he ignored the facts, went with his faith, and sent dozens of people to their deaths. He is, in fact, responsible for those deaths. I also don't think that Clifford was saying that it's wrong to believe in something when there's not enough proof; he's trying to say that it's wrong to follow blind faith and not take things into consideration.
Clifford uses this analogy, I feel, to show that blind faith isn't always the best thing in the world. The shipowner had blind faith that the old ship would be able to make the journey because it had made all its previous journeys that were under worse conditions than the current one. However, he should have expected the boat to fail eventually due to the lack of repairs being made. I feel like this is a rather relevant example of Clifford's point; that being blind faith isn't a good idea, and no matte what the outcome is, you have to deal with the consequences.
I agree that blind faith is dangerous because we are the ones that have to pay for of it. The boat had made all the other previous journeys why wouldn't it be able to make it? The ship owner should have the ship checked after every voyage then there wouldn't have been a problem.
The shipowner knew his ship was not fit to take another trip on the sea. Instead of getting it checked he trusted that it would make another trip for him because nothing had happened before. He put his trust in the ship that nothing would happen. This is like us and God. We put our trust in God that things will get better. We ask him the help us with something. But if they don't get better then we get angry at God for not helping us. This is blind faith, faith without truly understanding. We do not totally understand how God works or even if he does work in mysterious ways. Maybe it is just karma. No one can really prove if God exists unless he is standing right in front of them.
I agree he pretty much decided on his own that he wouldn't care about the ship or him and his passengers. The thing is God has a plan for us all and we may think that plan should be different. God definitely does work in mysterious ways.
In my opinion God helps us in situations that we cannot control. If we are stupid enough to drive down the road without hands or take an unfit ship across sea then that is on us and we cannot blame God for our stupidity. God helps us, but like you said in mysterious ways.
Basically this whole thing is that a shipowner leaves everything to faith instead of being aware of the here in now. This is completely relevant because with religion because there is no true way to prove a JC god exist that people blindy put faith in that. There is no way to disprove faith just what the faith is in but if the people still believe because it is there faith then there is no persuading them.So there is no way to logically prove god exist unless he where to show himself to people, not through miracles or acts, but literally show himself in the flesh.
I think that the point of the shipowner example is trying to show that leaving everything to faith without considering the here and now can lead to consequences. By blindly sticking to his faith in his ship, when he clearly knew his ship was in serious disrepair, the shipowner sent dozens of people to their deaths. I think that this example is relevant to a point, because blindly going with your faith without examining the present and taking things into consideration is foolish and unwise. However, I don't think that this analogy is very strong because we know the ship exists but we don't know for sure if God exists. Having faith in the ship is different than having faith in God. With the ship we can at least take into consideration the condition it is in and go from there, but we don't know these types of things about God. I think that Clifford's point was meant to be a good one, but comparing having faith in God to having faith in a crumbling ship is a weak analogy because they aren't the same.
Thats quite an interesting viewpoint i never thought of that. Its very true that the ship is a tangible thing while god isn't. Ill have to think on this a while.
I completely agree he should have thought about the consequences. He just pretty much said screw it, I'll leave it up to God. Everyone expects God to solve all their problems when there were ways to avoid it. I really like how you pointed out the fact of having faith in the ship and God were 2 different things.
The ship owner leaves everything to faith instead of thinking about the here and now. Since he didn't believe in the here and now he suffered consequences which was killing people. The thing is you have to think about exactly what you doing you can't rely on faith if your not trying to help yourself at the same time. Just sitting around doing nothing is going to do nothing and your not going to get anywhere you have to work for what you want. God cannot just fix something that was your fault in the beginning. God will help you out but you can't rely solely on him so have faith but also use the guidance God gives.
I agree. God is blamed for every thing that goes wrong in our lives. Yes, He is all powerful, all loving, and all knowing and that entails making our lives perfect, but he can't be fixing every single thing we do wrong and making it better. How would we learn if he did? We made our own choices up to that point so somewhere along the line He really should be obligated to help us at all if we put ourselves in that situation what ever it may be.
Obviously the ship in this metaphor is God and the shipowner is a doubtful believer. The biggest problem I have with this analogy is at then end when the shipowner collects his insurance money. If I were the one who was sailing on the vessel I wouldn't want something that I have doubts in be the thing I'm relying on most to keep me alive. Someone had to be on the boat when it went down, where's their insurance? This analogy reminds me of trust falls. If you have someone in your life that's only shows up when it's convenient for them or when they can take credit for something, would you really want them there to catch you when it's important?
Trial and error. No the ship owner should not have sailed his boat with the doubts he was having. However I understand the God and faith analogy because if you successfully did something 50 or 100 times over and over the same way each time then of course you'd have faith. I'm not saying that the ship owner wasn't at fault because clearly he was. He took responsibility in other peoples lives on a possibly broken down sketchy boat. He was reckless and irresponsible yet ended up getting reimbursed for his own mistakes. I am very disgusted by the fact that he collected insurance on it. His fault or not I thought there would have been a investigation since many lives were lost and in conclusion he was at fault and possibly convicted. Which ever way you look at it accident or not money can't replace the loss of something you once had. Money can't buy happiness and it definitely can't remove the mountains of grief, remorse, and guilt I would imagine he would be feeling after killing innocent people. Unfortunately (sometimes) everything happens for a reason.
This parable interpreted that Clifford is acted on a belief with insufficient evidence; the inadequacy of the evidence of the belief, but it is not the belief itself. I think, we all in every moment of our life acted out based on belief. For instance, we want to help others but the result may be bad or turns out to be fatal. Therefore, we have to explain what we act or do just based on what we belief is right to do. also, when our belief is so fixed, we cannot think otherwise. However, I also understand that belief based upon insufficient evidence can lead to the downfall of society – because if this belief turns out to be true, society will suffer, as people will stop examining the issues with an open mind. Mankinds will no longer questioning as to the validity of their belief and they will become naive and prone to fraud, hastening the downfall of society. The facts that we all human kind still beloved from little thing that we about God, I think faith is the reason or “overcomes reason.” So perhaps we just need good intentions in our heart, an inquisitive soul toward the divine and a desire to believe in great glory even when it is hard. The interpretation of this parable is as one of our experiences in daily life. There are things in this world that go beyond human reasoning and acted out insufficient evidence.
The example by Clifford is about the shipowner choosing to sail his ship even though he knew it was not safe. This can be compared our own mentality and belief in God and faith even though there are so many negative things in life and so much evil. I don't think this is a good example because the author portrays having faith and going into something blindly as a negative. I wouldn't say having faith in God whether we can see him or not, and whether we can see where our ending is and what happens or not, is a bad thing. I think it is a positive thing to believe in something good and believe that we unknowingly go through life not knowing what will happen, but having faith that it will be positive.
The ship-owner believed the ship would make it to its destination based on his faith and past experiences of the ships voyages. Rather than taking necessary precautions and look in all directions he chooses to rely only on his faith to make the decision not to update the ship. This is true for people’s belief in God as well. People rely solely on faith of the unknown. They would rather go blindly than to look at all aspects negative or positive. I do think this is relevant, the ship-owner chose to blindly follow his faith like so many people who follow god. There was no sound proof this ship would make it to its destination and he chose to rely on past records of the ships voyages. People do this with God. They rely on the accounts of the bible and other people to make their decisions about God. I think Clifford’s point is a good one because it gives example. The example is that even though you have faith in something it doesn’t always mean it’s going to be the right thing to have faith in. Terrible things can happen even when believing in God it could lead you to become over confident.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that the man had complete faith in his ship so he did not look over it. This is like our relationship with God, we trust Him for the better, but there still are doubts. Are we responsible for our beliefs like the man was responsible for the ships accident, claiming the innocent lives of others. Why should innocent people die because of anothers mistakes? And is there enough proof to ay God exists?
DeleteI don't know if the man had complete faith in his boat otherwise he wouldn't have had second thoughts about it, when his moral compass should have kicked in instead of hoping for the best. Plan for the worst and hope for the best or is it enough to turn blind eye and call it faith where as a simple inspection might have revealed the problem that caused the sinking. Amazing how things never come to light in the day to day decisions people make that affect other peoples lives.
DeleteThe ship owner knew deep down that his ship had problems, but sailed it anyway because he put faith in it. The ship owner shut out his doubts and wanted himself to believe that the ship could make it. The relationship between this article and God to me is that if your hesitant that God exists it is good to check your doubts. An overall inspection can lead to strong faith in something. Example; If you have a person fix a part on your car you have faith in the person fixing it and you believe it will run correctly when it is all said and done. So if you put faith in God and live through him, then you will get to heaven. So I am up in the air on this relation though because it goes deeper than just faith. If we are simply talking about faith then i would agree that Clifford's point is a good one in pointing out the good/bad about faith. Faith is good to have and makes you feel better in situations, but just having faith does't mean that it will work out in the end.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, i agree with you when you say the man had faith even though there were doubts that the ship wasnt reliable, but he sailed on anyway. But it is good to check your doubts because it leads to a greater relationship with God. I really like your car metaphor and that we trust our lives in eachother hoping it will turn out for the best and sometimes having faith alone is not enough.
DeleteThe point of the shipowner example is that even though you think that there is evidence because of actions in the past, doesn't mean that you should risk your life as well as other people's lives because of something that isn't proved. He put faith in his ship because of things he had seen beforehand. I think that this is a good example and he does make a good point. It is a good example because it is relateable to something that could and does happen. We put faith in somethings because of something that has happened in the past, without looking at the condition of the present. It is a good point because it shows the downfall in doing this as well as the lesson. You wouldn't trust a beaten up boat to sail just because it has in the past, so why should you put faith in God just because of examples in the past?
ReplyDeleteI like the way you highlighted the fact that the shipowner relied on past information and experiences without considering the present. Everything changes over time so it foolish to base beliefs and judgements solely on past events.
DeleteLogicians have a phrase for basing opinions on past experiences, and anticipating an outcome. Its called "the gamblers fallacy", it pertains to actions/events that are repeated over and over, like flipping a coin. Just because your last 10 flips turned up heads, doesn't have any bearing on the next 10 flips of the same coin. To believe anything different is wrong, because the past actions have no bearing on the next. This can be applied to our shipowner and his transporting of emigrants because it was a repeated event.
DeleteThe shipowner example, by Clifford, is that a ship is not seaworthy but the owner decides to sail it anyway despite the problems that it's having. This is compared to having faith in God, because even though there may be problems in the world and evil surrounding us all, some of us choose to believe and remain strong in the faith while others may not choose to "sail their ship" because of all the problems. Although this is suppose to compare to having faith in God, I don't think it's relevant. In the end, the ship sinks and people die. Yes I think the rapture will come soon and people will die, but who's to say that there isn't a God that will save us from spending eternity in hell? We won't know until the time comes, so why are we comparing it to a story that ends badly? I don't think that's fair. As I've stated before, everyone who believes has had their doubts as to whether God really does exist or not, but we choose to remain devout to Him anyway. I don't think any of these arguments or examples are good because it's not going to alter what someone already believes. If anything, I do think it tests them and their knowledge to help them become strong in what they already believe in. That's just my personal opinion.
ReplyDeleteI agree. These arguments test the people that do believe in God. So many people are so quick to agree with the first person who says that God isn't real and its probably because they weren't introduced to Him when they were younger. Parents don't take their kids to church every weekend like they used to. They don't get involved with there community and see all the good people they have around them. And really it honestly doesn't matter what the argument proves or what it doesn't prove because the people who do believe in God will still believe in Him no matter if the argument says that he isn't real.
DeleteI also believe that a rapture will happen soon. The world is getting rough and in self destruct mode. I like how you added this into your post. I don't like the comparison that much either.
DeleteMy interpretation of the shipowner is that even though the ship was not perfect, it had its doubts and concerns but it sailed. This example relates to believing in God because just like the ship, all the arguments trying to prove God exists have their problems and doubts but out of faith the belief in God sails. I think that this point is important because I believe in God, and though I cannot prove he exists i still have faith in Him and believe. I think that is what Clifford is trying to show, that sometimes even without 100% proof of God, that people believe in him out of faith and I think that that is a perfectly good reason. I think this point is a good one because i think that faith is the reason many people believe in God. Also because comparing belief in God to a shipowners faith in his questionable boat is an accurate analogy. The shipowner has faith in his boat although it may not be a sure thing, just like many people have faith and believe in God even though there are problems in doubts in the arguments that attempt to prove his existence.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that it was about the fact that quelling your doubts with your faith is wrong right? That the shipowner had doubts about the ships sailability but he had faith in it and his faith ultimately proved to be the wrong choice when the boat sank killing everyone on board. And that even if it hadnt sank he still would have been culpable. You saying that it's a good analogy to belief in God is not doing the belief in god any favors.
DeleteWhat is the point of the example about the shipowner in Clifford's piece in relation to believing in God simply based on faith? Do you think the shipowner example is relevant? Is Clifford's point a good one? Explain.
ReplyDeleteI think this is a wonderful example. We have free will and the choices that we make are truly our own. I can not close my eyes when I am driving and expect God to help me to safety. We have to ensure our own safety by the decisions that we make. God is always watching over us, but not in the way that we think he is. He watches over us when things are out of our control and puts tools in place for us to use if we decide to take his hand in guidance. If someone is at a party and there are drugs we all have the choice to leave or stay, to take the drugs or not take the drugs. We have free will he doesn't make us choose right from wrong. We get to decide.
I like your analogy of driving. I however, think that you could have went more into detail and looked at it holistically. Clifford’s point is relevant but where does it relate to god. I know you give us examples that he is watching over is but does it relate to that fact that we follow god blindly and the ship is the representation of that subject. It would have been nice to know more about your opinion of the relation between the two rather than how you feel god works in mysterious ways.
DeleteEven though the ship wasn't in perfect condition, the shipowner decided to sail it anyway. He put faith into it even though he knew the ship might not make it. People do this all the time. If someone is very sick, people hope, wish, and pray the person will get better, even if the odds aren't likely. Even if we don't know what the outcome of something is going to be, faith keeps us going and pushes us through.
ReplyDeleteI think that the faith in the ship was a very negative thing and in no way comparable to the type of faith that gives people hope. That being said, I totally agree that faith can be a good thing. Especially faith in something like God. Even if belief in God causes some extremists to carry out unspeakable acts in his name, for the most part faith in God keeps people in line. If the majority of the population wasn't afraid of some final punishment or that God was watching I would never leave my home again. Sometimes I think faith in God is all that stands between some people and regressing to something akin to primal animals, taking what they want and doing what they please.
DeleteI really like that you compared faith to having some type of illness. Even if the disease is terminal and you know the person will die, it doesn't make you lose hope, because you still hope and pray that the person will recover. The sailor knew that his boat was "sick" but he had faith that it would recover. It obviously didn't recover and people ended up dying which is why I don't think it's necessarily a good story to compare to the relationship we have with God. If it wouldn't have ended badly and you were to consider the first part, then I do believe it fits. We don't know for sure if God does or doesn't exist, but as I wrote in my post, I believe God throws us curve balls to test our faith, and we have to try to remain strong throughout our life so we can spend eternity with him in heave.
DeleteYour analogy of being sick is hard to compare because with putting your faith in someone who is sick, isn't really hurting anyone. You may disappoint yourself in the long run because you had high expectations, but you wouldn't be hurting anyone around you. The guy in the ship put his faith in something he knew was going to fail and decided to put himself, and possibly others in that danger. It's like pushing your beliefs on someone else and having them drown with you.
DeleteThe shipowner knew that the ship wasn't in proper shape but he had the faith to sail it. Even though he knew it wasn't necessarily the safest to send the boat without direction. Yes, I think that this example is very relevant because as hard as it is to have faith in something he had it in a boat. Having faith in god is the key to having the blessings he will give you. In order to be blessed with his good will you must have faith he is there even though you don't have him there to touch. Clifford's example is great because it is the definition of having faith in something you don't know that is going to happen however, in the end it is what you need to be able to do something like he did.
ReplyDeleteI completely disagree. The ship owner's "faith" in the ship was completely unfounded and undeserved. Not to mention so far off base from faith in God. His "faith" in his ship caused all the families that were on board to die a terrible death at sea. His feelings about his boat were ones wrought of greed and negligence. His "faith" was out of convenience because he didn't want to spend the money to fix his ship. I can't even compare faith in God to this dude's actions.
DeleteIf the example wouldn't have ended badly, then yes, I would have to agree with you that it is relevant. But if you do believe in God and think that having faith in something that may not be there, then I don't think you would agree that this is a good story to describe a relationship with God. The story ended with the ship wrecking and people dying, but if you considered solely the first part of the story, then like I said, I would agree with that. Having faith in something that may not work (like a "broken" ship) is hard, but I believe that it really tests a person on their faith in that particular object (or God).
DeleteThe point of Clifford's shipowner analogy is that faith is well and good, but even well intentioned shouldn't cover up doubts you have. The shipowner had doubts, but his faith in his ship made him overlook the obvious problems the ship had. He often thought about getting it fixed, but he didn't, ultimately causing the deaths of all on board his ship when it sank. Again, his faith covered up something else, his guilt. He refuses to look at his doubts and blindly believes everything would be ok, an analogy to other blind followers.
ReplyDeleteThat's a great way to look at it! Faith covering up guilt. Wow!
DeleteI like your point about the shipowner using faith to cover up guilt. We know he used it to cover up doubt but it stands to reason he would also use it to cover up his guilt as well.
DeleteI think this is a great example, even though having faith in God and a ship making it to its destination are a bit apart but none the less faith based. Clifford’s point is good even though the ending was bad. Had the emigrants made it to their destination then no one would be the wiser and he would have proven himself correct. Even though the ship had made this trip many times before in the past he chose to have faith in the boat instead of doing something as simple as to get the ship looked at and made a free will decision once having all the facts, but he took the lower road and put lives at risk and the died and he collected the insurance on it. I think with anything in life there are many levels in everything in life including faith. Blind faith doesn’t mean you get to overlook aspects in life when making these types of decisions, especially when other lives are at stake and the impact it could make. Having faith in God basically only affects you.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the ship and its relation to blind faith. However, your faith only affecting yourself is not always true. Your faith if you choose one has an effect on many people generally everyone you meet can be affected by your choice in faith. You base your judgments on your faith do I steal is this person moral all of these are based on faith and have an effect on everyone you meet.
DeleteI believe the comparison made by Clifford regarding the ship owner was to illustrate the point that blind faith in anything can be irresponsible and have negative results. I don't think this is really the best example. Much like the teleological argument the analogy just isn't strong enough for me to buy into it much. Having faith in a floating hunk of decrepit wood is very different from having faith in God. My point is this, it is extremely foolish to have "faith" in something when evidence to the contrary is placed under your nose. The ship owner could see that there were obvious problems with his ship and chose to sail it anyway. There exists no real concrete evidence that says god does not exist. The "leap of faith" is a bit different here. To blindly ignore evidence and believe in something you know isn't true is just foolish. Now, if a person had "faith" that god was going to deliver them from some extreme and terrible situation, that would be equally foolish. Unless God had descended from the heavens and personally saved you in the past, I don't think it's wise to believe that god will rescue you. It is said that God helps those who helps themselves. I think Clifford's point could be a good one, but the analogy of having faith in a ship and having faith in God could probably changed to make his argument stronger.
ReplyDeleteI really like they way your related Clifford's example to the teleological argument and how the the analogy in both cases isn't very strong because the things being compared aren't really that similar. This was not something I originally considered but now that the point has been made I agree with it.
DeleteI think it's only natural for someone to feel defensive when their beliefs are questioned but you might want to look at this a little more closely. I concur that is it foolish to place your faith in something when evidence to the contrary is placed before you. Now, I'm not saying that there is no evidence that God does not exist but there isn't much other than speculation to go from. Also while some may say that God helps those who help themselves, wouldn't that mean they're putting in most of the work if they're helping themselves? In your eyes what would be a better analogy?
DeleteYes, I also believe that it was a blind and irresponsible idea. In addition, I like that you added something that was relevant from our class by adding the teleological argument.
Delete@Jacob C
DeleteMy beliefs? I don't believe I discussed my beliefs at all. I'm merely examining the argument that was set before us. I don't think it is a strong argument. I'm not sure exactly what it is I need to look at more closely. I don't want to provide a better analogy, I just think this is a poor one because the god is an intangible concept while a boat is a pretty tangible thing. I don't really have an open stance on the topic of the existence of god but I'm certainly not defensive over the direction of this argument. Quite the contrary. No matter the ending result, I just can't agree with a bad argument. As far as putting in most of the work, yes absolutely. Anyone who would think anyone else should put in work in their life is just foolish. I look forward to your response.
I'm sorry but I have to make one more post regarding almost everyone in this blog. The point Clifford was trying to make was that blind faith is bad. He is comparing your faith in God to faith in a ragged broken down old ship. I thought we were north of the bible belt in Iowa. Seriously people, I can understand why the super religious would not like this but don't try to spin it into a positive analogy for faith in God. Pick your battles! Say you don't agree and move on. This class is supposed to show you another way to think about things. You don't have to agree but you also don't have to fight it tooth and nail every step of the way. These are arguments that are not meant to be twisted in your favor. Just relax and try looking at these topics with an open mind!
ReplyDeleteI read this story once about a woman who stopped believing in God because he took her son from her... the story starts with the kid being easily treatable but the women says I have faith God will heal him. The child's illness progresses and a simple surgical procedure can fix him, but the woman says no no God will heal him. The boy gets very sick and needs to be hospitalized but again the woman says no God is just testing my faith. Then when the child dies she blames God. Her "blind faith" blinded her to all the resources she had available to her to save her son. Much like the boats obvious disrepair was evidence enough that it should not be used thus suggesting that following blind faith without using common sense can and will most often end in disaster. I know this story could be interpreted as sometimes having faith is not always sensible or easy but that is not the point of faith, but I also think that having faith is about correctly reading the signs and using all the resources God has given us. If you have the medicine take it, if you have a different boat use it!
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that having faith is about correctly reading the signs and using the resources we have. I think that God would want us to utilize what we have. I think that if God didn't want us to use all the resources we have, then he wouldn't have allowed us to discover and have them. Having faith definitely isn't always easy, and I think that making the right decisions, using common sense, powering through tough times and not giving up shows how strong your faith is.
DeleteI really like your point it god is the one giving the signs and resources. She should have accepted the hospitals help and got her son treatment before such terrible tragedy occurred. I understand that some people have very strong faith and convictions but having such blind faith isn't always a good outcome, this story for example.
DeleteClifford's example of the shipowner highlights the idea of believing in something based on blind faith and without evidence or observations and how this is not an ideal way to believe. In the example of the shipowner, Clifford states that even if the circumstances were different and the ship arrived safely the shipowner would still be a dishonorable person because his beliefs weren't based on solid foundations. I think this is a very valid point because it deals not with the outcome of the situation but with the intent or origin. This, I feel, is a better way and more complete way to judge the morality of the situation. If an intent is fundamentally wrong then a positive outcome does not change the originally poor/bad intent.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is true. Either way it goes the ship would have made it and Clifford got it done with pure luck. Also, I like how you concluded it by saying the outcome may have been positive but it didn't change the bad intent.
DeleteI like to think that the ship theory is a metaphore forour relationship with God. the ship owner had faith in his boat because he had relied on her. He put his belief in the ship because she hasbeen through so many voyages and has whethered each journey. But that doesnt mean he didnt have any doubts. He never looked her over, yet he knew in the back of his mind there might be a possibility she could not make it through this one. Does this make him responsible for the deaths of the people aboard the ship? I think the ship is like God, because we put our trust in Him, yet there still will be doubts to refute it. If we believe in God but there is not sufficient proof, then we fall victim to our convictions despite the proof and i thimk that is what clifford was saying. Hes saying that it is wrong to believe in something without sufficient proof. Is there proof God exists? To me, there is plenty of it! Miracles happen everyday, God is like water that flows everywhere this it lives in all of us.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm a little confused by the sentence, " If we believe in God but there is not sufficient proof, then we fall victim to our convictions despite the proof..." The point of it is that there is no proof and just because someone might be lucky in that the boat didn't sink the last voyage, you shouldn't keep running it hard until it breaks. You should back up your convictions with facts and evidence so you don't risk your life or the lives of others because you think a miracle might happen.
DeleteI do think that having faith in something is not a bad thing, however, having blind faith is foolish, and this is what I think the shipowner example really means to show. Yes, the shipowner had faith in his ship because it was so reliable in the past. But that was in the past! He clearly knew it was falling apart and needed repair, but instead he ignored the facts, went with his faith, and sent dozens of people to their deaths. He is, in fact, responsible for those deaths. I also don't think that Clifford was saying that it's wrong to believe in something when there's not enough proof; he's trying to say that it's wrong to follow blind faith and not take things into consideration.
DeleteClifford uses this analogy, I feel, to show that blind faith isn't always the best thing in the world. The shipowner had blind faith that the old ship would be able to make the journey because it had made all its previous journeys that were under worse conditions than the current one. However, he should have expected the boat to fail eventually due to the lack of repairs being made. I feel like this is a rather relevant example of Clifford's point; that being blind faith isn't a good idea, and no matte what the outcome is, you have to deal with the consequences.
ReplyDeleteI agree that blind faith is dangerous because we are the ones that have to pay for of it. The boat had made all the other previous journeys why wouldn't it be able to make it? The ship owner should have the ship checked after every voyage then there wouldn't have been a problem.
DeleteThe shipowner knew his ship was not fit to take another trip on the sea. Instead of getting it checked he trusted that it would make another trip for him because nothing had happened before. He put his trust in the ship that nothing would happen. This is like us and God. We put our trust in God that things will get better. We ask him the help us with something. But if they don't get better then we get angry at God for not helping us. This is blind faith, faith without truly understanding. We do not totally understand how God works or even if he does work in mysterious ways. Maybe it is just karma. No one can really prove if God exists unless he is standing right in front of them.
ReplyDeleteI agree he pretty much decided on his own that he wouldn't care about the ship or him and his passengers. The thing is God has a plan for us all and we may think that plan should be different. God definitely does work in mysterious ways.
DeleteIn my opinion God helps us in situations that we cannot control. If we are stupid enough to drive down the road without hands or take an unfit ship across sea then that is on us and we cannot blame God for our stupidity. God helps us, but like you said in mysterious ways.
DeleteBasically this whole thing is that a shipowner leaves everything to faith instead of being aware of the here in now. This is completely relevant because with religion because there is no true way to prove a JC god exist that people blindy put faith in that. There is no way to disprove faith just what the faith is in but if the people still believe because it is there faith then there is no persuading them.So there is no way to logically prove god exist unless he where to show himself to people, not through miracles or acts, but literally show himself in the flesh.
ReplyDeleteI think that the point of the shipowner example is trying to show that leaving everything to faith without considering the here and now can lead to consequences. By blindly sticking to his faith in his ship, when he clearly knew his ship was in serious disrepair, the shipowner sent dozens of people to their deaths. I think that this example is relevant to a point, because blindly going with your faith without examining the present and taking things into consideration is foolish and unwise. However, I don't think that this analogy is very strong because we know the ship exists but we don't know for sure if God exists. Having faith in the ship is different than having faith in God. With the ship we can at least take into consideration the condition it is in and go from there, but we don't know these types of things about God. I think that Clifford's point was meant to be a good one, but comparing having faith in God to having faith in a crumbling ship is a weak analogy because they aren't the same.
ReplyDeleteThats quite an interesting viewpoint i never thought of that. Its very true that the ship is a tangible thing while god isn't. Ill have to think on this a while.
DeleteI completely agree he should have thought about the consequences. He just pretty much said screw it, I'll leave it up to God. Everyone expects God to solve all their problems when there were ways to avoid it. I really like how you pointed out the fact of having faith in the ship and God were 2 different things.
DeleteThe ship owner leaves everything to faith instead of thinking about the here and now. Since he didn't believe in the here and now he suffered consequences which was killing people. The thing is you have to think about exactly what you doing you can't rely on faith if your not trying to help yourself at the same time. Just sitting around doing nothing is going to do nothing and your not going to get anywhere you have to work for what you want. God cannot just fix something that was your fault in the beginning. God will help you out but you can't rely solely on him so have faith but also use the guidance God gives.
ReplyDeleteI agree. God is blamed for every thing that goes wrong in our lives. Yes, He is all powerful, all loving, and all knowing and that entails making our lives perfect, but he can't be fixing every single thing we do wrong and making it better. How would we learn if he did? We made our own choices up to that point so somewhere along the line He really should be obligated to help us at all if we put ourselves in that situation what ever it may be.
DeleteObviously the ship in this metaphor is God and the shipowner is a doubtful believer. The biggest problem I have with this analogy is at then end when the shipowner collects his insurance money. If I were the one who was sailing on the vessel I wouldn't want something that I have doubts in be the thing I'm relying on most to keep me alive. Someone had to be on the boat when it went down, where's their insurance? This analogy reminds me of trust falls. If you have someone in your life that's only shows up when it's convenient for them or when they can take credit for something, would you really want them there to catch you when it's important?
ReplyDeleteNope, I wouldn't. I like the way you compared it to insurance money, and you brought up that question at the end. Good way to look at it.
DeleteI wouldn't want that either. Good comparisons.
DeleteTrial and error. No the ship owner should not have sailed his boat with the doubts he was having. However I understand the God and faith analogy because if you successfully did something 50 or 100 times over and over the same way each time then of course you'd have faith. I'm not saying that the ship owner wasn't at fault because clearly he was. He took responsibility in other peoples lives on a possibly broken down sketchy boat. He was reckless and irresponsible yet ended up getting reimbursed for his own mistakes. I am very disgusted by the fact that he collected insurance on it. His fault or not I thought there would have been a investigation since many lives were lost and in conclusion he was at fault and possibly convicted. Which ever way you look at it accident or not money can't replace the loss of something you once had. Money can't buy happiness and it definitely can't remove the mountains of grief, remorse, and guilt I would imagine he would be feeling after killing innocent people. Unfortunately (sometimes) everything happens for a reason.
ReplyDeleteThis parable interpreted that Clifford is acted on a belief with insufficient evidence; the inadequacy of the evidence of the belief, but it is not the belief itself. I think, we all in every moment of our life acted out based on belief. For instance, we want to help others but the result may be bad or turns out to be fatal. Therefore, we have to explain what we act or do just based on what we belief is right to do. also, when our belief is so fixed, we cannot think otherwise. However, I also understand that belief based upon insufficient evidence can lead to the downfall of society – because if this belief turns out to be true, society will suffer, as people will stop examining the issues with an open mind. Mankinds will no longer questioning as to the validity of their belief and they will become naive and prone to fraud, hastening the downfall of society. The facts that we all human kind still beloved from little thing that we about God, I think faith is the reason or “overcomes reason.” So perhaps we just need good intentions in our heart, an inquisitive soul toward the divine and a desire to believe in great glory even when it is hard. The interpretation of this parable is as one of our experiences in daily life. There are things in this world that go beyond human reasoning and acted out insufficient evidence.
ReplyDeleteThe example by Clifford is about the shipowner choosing to sail his ship even though he knew it was not safe. This can be compared our own mentality and belief in God and faith even though there are so many negative things in life and so much evil. I don't think this is a good example because the author portrays having faith and going into something blindly as a negative. I wouldn't say having faith in God whether we can see him or not, and whether we can see where our ending is and what happens or not, is a bad thing. I think it is a positive thing to believe in something good and believe that we unknowingly go through life not knowing what will happen, but having faith that it will be positive.
ReplyDelete